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Right Foot Braker Needs Canam Setups


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#1 Bob Simpson

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 09:59 AM

I've had a lot of trouble driving these cars as a right foot braking driver, but it seems that some (most) people can drive them.  I'm assuming that most people drive braking with the left foot.

For me, as soon as I'm off the throttle, either just lifting to slow down or braking, the rear of the car gets very nervous shifting either way suddenly and erratically.  Admittedly these cars have a lot of power and are tough to drive in general, but I'm finding it almost impossible.  If I practice A LOT, I can just manage.  I've found that left foot braking stabilizes the car, but left foot braking will be my last resort.

I use 53 brake bias and 60/30/2 diff settings.  I've tried harder and softer spring, damper and ARB settings.  I have a feeling that I need to work mostly on my diff settings, but that's an area where I'm not too confident.

Are there any right foot brakers out there who have some setups or setup tips to share?

#2 Robert Fleurke

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 10:30 AM

Bob, I'm no right foot braker nor do  have a lot of xp with the Canam mod, but what you describe and seeing 53% FBB and 60/30/2 diff I would try a higher FBB 54-56 (RFB use generally more than LFB) and maybe try a xx/30/3/4/5, also you could use less toe-in at the rear, towards zero. And/or softer rear springs,  softer rear ARB. Lower rear tire pressures, lower bump/rebound settings at the rear.

That would be the adjustments I would try first...good luck  ;)

#3 richard cooke

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 10:40 AM

Bob

How do you get on with the default setups?

#4 silence

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 10:54 AM

Bob, I'm a right foot braker and, as Richard said, I also drive them just with default setups. I just adjusted steering ratio and, like Robert said, adjusted brake bias to 56% (with 57% I'm a bit faster), oh and let the wing at 15 degree!

:wave:

#5 John Woods

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 10:59 AM

View PostRobert Fleurke, on Dec 29 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

That would be the adjustments I would try first...good luck  ;)

Yep. Try 60/60 or 30/30 diff with as many clutches as you are happy with, or at least try same on as off even if 85/85, and move brake bias up to 58 maybe more. In general, imo diffs are to be set the same except when nothing else helps then change to different power and coast settings depending on lament.

This has less to do with springs, shocks, and bars...jmho, unless they are just wrong altogether.

#6 Bob Simpson

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 12:19 PM

I've gotten some advice about the diff from Warren Hall and I think I understand it better.  I've moved to 60/85/2 and it's an improvement.  Maybe I'll experiment with one or two more clutches.  I had dropped the springs to around 200 in the hopes of more stability but moving them back to around 300 has made it better as well.  I've moved the BB to 54 and the ARBs higher too.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Dec 29 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#7 Bob Simpson

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 12:44 PM

View Postrichard cooke, on Dec 29 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Bob

How do you get on with the default setups?

I went back and tried the default setup and it drives very well, surprisingly since the diff settings are completely different at 85/30/6.  But the springs, ARBs and dampers are much stiffer in the default setup.

I guess that I was thinking that the default setup would be way too understeering.  It is a bit, but it gives me a good starting point to adjust from now.

Edited by Bob Simpson, Dec 29 2013 - 12:46 PM.


#8 richard cooke

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 01:12 PM

The springs are so stiff because of the downforce.  If you have too much understeer change it with the arbs and rear wing.

#9 JMF

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 10:49 PM

View PostBob Simpson, on Dec 29 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I use 53 brake bias and 60/30/2 diff settings.  I've tried harder and softer spring, damper and ARB settings.  I have a feeling that I need to work mostly on my diff settings, but that's an area where I'm not too confident.


I'm not a right foot braker yet Bob. I still think you're having a harder time than you should though. This topic has me thinking I might be able to make some nice improvements in my setups that I've been missing. Starting with the default setups I usually soften the springs. I like soft springs. I feel like I get more grip and a more forgiving car. I usually use about 300lbs front and 350 lbs. rear. I'm running 55% FBB almost constantly. I run 85 on the power side. I like to spin the wheels instead of the car. I have been running 30 on the coast side but I'm going to change that in the future. For me the less coast locking I have the less the rear end wants to slide sideways when I'm downshifting in a turn. I use 60 on the coast side in the 67 Ferrari 312 and it keeps the rear of the car from sliding out when I decelerate while turning. The rear toe seems to have an effect on how much the rear wants to slide while downshifting too. I usually run about +.100 on the rear. The lower the rear toe in, the less the rear steps out when downshifting for me.

I think my setups are very mild. I'm rarely, if ever, on the gas and brakes at the same time Bob. Here's a setup I've run 1:24.55 in the M8F at Stardust. This setup might give you something to use for a basis.

Attached File  practice.zip   281bytes   14 downloads

#10 John Woods

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 12:00 AM

Here's a link to the Vari-Loc Diff Tuning Guide: http://icpcitation.c...iloc_tuning.htm
Its a current Salisbury type diff.

#11 Art-J

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 12:31 AM

Bob, by definition, higher locking on the coast side makes the rear more stable under breaking (plus gives some understeer as an unwanted bonus :D), so switching to super loose 60/85/2 sounds...uhm... peculiar, because it should give You a completely opposite effect (are You sure You "understand the diff better"? :D). I'm a RFbreaker as well and for that very reason I don't intend to go over 45 degrees on the coast side ever! I think Your 53% brake balance was a major problem here. That's enough to make rears lock first under heavy braking in some tricky corners.

#12 Saiph

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 06:30 AM

When I first tried the Can-Am mod, I went out for a few laps, and then decided that the ~56% front brake bias in most of the default setups seemed a little excessive, and turned it down by quite a bit. Big mistake! I found the back end breaking away all the time, and I soon reverted to 55-56%! Am I right in thinking that a contributory factor in the rear-end skittishness of these cars is that the braking effect of the large engines themselves is much larger than with other GPL mods? As soon as I let off the throttle, I find I get a large slowing effect, without even touching the brakes. Maybe someone involved with the Can-Am physics could shed some light on this?

#13 richard cooke

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 08:56 AM

These cars also have more weight on the rear wheels, so the bb needs to be a couple of clicks higher than most mods.  The default springs rates were set to cope with the downforce at top speed, but at tracks with low top speeds you can soften them up.  Also if your highest speed (downforce) is on a nice smooth part of the track,  you can probably get away with softer springs that get fully compressed at that point of the track.

#14 one2fwee

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 09:51 AM

I'm much confused!

You complain that the car snap-oversteers off the power with a 30 coast and 2 clutches.
However when you change to 85 coast (and still 2 clutches), you say it is "better"?

Surely it would in-fact make it worse?? As you are decreasing the amount of locking on the coast side!

#15 JMF

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 01:38 PM

View Postone2fwee, on Dec 30 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I'm much confused!

You complain that the car snap-oversteers off the power with a 30 coast and 2 clutches.
However when you change to 85 coast (and still 2 clutches), you say it is "better"?

Surely it would in-fact make it worse?? As you are decreasing the amount of locking on the coast side!

I'm confused too. I thought more locking on the coast side would help stabilize the car but from tests and my experience that doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe it's working like the power side locking. With lots of locking on the power side both wheels break traction and the car wants to spin where with less locking one wheel spins but the car doesn't slide sideways as much. Maybe it's working the same way on the coast side. With less locking one wheel loses traction before the other and helps keep the car from sliding sideways. Whenever the rear steps sideways downshifting while turning, I use less coast side locking to make the car slide less. It sure cut down on the number of spins I do.

What Saiph said about the engine braking seems true to me. I've got to be careful when I lift. Most of the time I gently ease off the accelerator to lessen the effect of engine braking. 7 to 8 liters is a lot of mass to keep in motion. That's what happened to me on the first lap at Mid-Ohio. I cut the throttle instantly and was very heavy on the braking which spun me off the track backwards. I was trying to man-handle the beast and make sure I wasn't rear-ended.

I tend to try to finesse the cars more than man-handle them. That may be why I'm more competitive in the Can Am cars than the other mods. They seem to reward a fine touch.




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